A Dark topic for the Darkroom

Feral, tell us more. But for the sake of Philo's health put it into spoiler brackets.    

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Childe of Malkav wrote:

Feral, tell us more. But for the sake of Philo's health put it into spoiler brackets.    

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Clothing, not big, well...  

ThePhilosopher wrote:

I wouldn't have thought you to be very religious...?  

LMAO!!! I love it! Keep arguing over penis on penis love. It's making me fall out of my chair laughing!   

Zer0Morph wrote:

LMAO!!!   I love it! Keep arguing over penis on penis love. It's making me fall out of my chair laughing!   

Oh, Zer0...It is an utmostly serious discussion on validity of BDSM and homosexuality in Europe...
Or at least before EU switches to Sharia as base of law, under the influence of Emirate of Paris and Caliphate of Berlin... Ergo, use before it is banned.

Feral wrote:

Zer0Morph wrote:

LMAO!!!   I love it! Keep arguing over penis on penis love. It's making me fall out of my chair laughing!   

Oh, Zer0...It is an utmostly serious discussion on validity of BDSM and homosexuality in Europe...
Or at least before EU switches to Sharia as base of law, under the influence of Emirate of Paris and Caliphate of Berlin... Ergo, use before it is banned.

As far as I see it, that ban will more probably be exported from Moscow via the red Army...
It's the Chamberlain dilemma: How can we stop the dictator without starting a war nobody wants? But if we don't stop the dictator, he will eventually bring the war to us...

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Malkav wrote:

*Dissing best president*

Why don't you go back under Grandma Merkel skirt while best president deals with both these faggots and these imploding desert people?

Feral wrote:

Zer0Morph wrote:

LMAO!!!   I love it! Keep arguing over penis on penis love. It's making me fall out of my chair laughing!   

Oh, Zer0...It is an utmostly serious discussion on validity of BDSM and homosexuality in Europe...
Or at least before EU switches to Sharia as base of law, under the influence of Emirate of Paris and Caliphate of Berlin... Ergo, use before it is banned.

I don't understand anything you typed. You're making me feel so... American.   

Zer0Morph wrote:

Feral wrote:

Zer0Morph wrote:

LMAO!!!   I love it! Keep arguing over penis on penis love. It's making me fall out of my chair laughing!   

Oh, Zer0...It is an utmostly serious discussion on validity of BDSM and homosexuality in Europe...
Or at least before EU switches to Sharia as base of law, under the influence of Emirate of Paris and Caliphate of Berlin... Ergo, use before it is banned.

I don't understand anything you typed. You're making me feel so... American.   

*whines*

OK, in Murican:

Bro, we need to like, kind of get some shagging done with hot dudes before those bearded dudes who came from Great Kingdom of Sand start, like, cutting our heads off of our necks for not wanting to shag girls...

Zer0Morph wrote:

Why don't you go back under Grandma Merkel skirt while best president deals with both these faggots and these imploding desert people?

Best president!?!? Aj waj, wej is mir... You make me want to convert back to Judaism with your foolishnes...
May you never have to deal with such a leader or live under one.

Feral wrote:

OK, in Murican:

Bro, we need to like, kind of get some shagging done with hot dudes before those bearded dudes who came from Great Kingdom of Sand start, like, cutting our heads off of our necks for not wanting to shag girls...

Man, you got it wrong about Sharia. When you bang a boy, they won't cut off your head but your dick... When you steal they cut off your hand... When you peep at a girl who isn't your wife, tey'll cut out your eyes. And when you pop a girl who isn't your wife she is stoned for adultery.

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Religion of peace

Bible's punishments aren't any better

To be fair, most muslims think the Sharia is globally BS as much as most Jewish don't kick your ass for not being cut down there or most Christians giving you shit because you had a divorce.
FYI, Christians massacrated anything that wasn't christian (understand "their kind of christianity") until like, the 18thC or so. Europe, the continent that was constantly at war for about 2000 years before the goddamn Rome Treaty in 1957)

Oh god, Merkel <_<



Zero, u so cute bro :p Keep pumpin' your muscles while we, with brains, discuss shit :p

ThePhilosopher wrote:

Religion of peace

Islam!?   *grabs an Uzi*  

Claudia wrote:

FYI, Christians massacrated anything that wasn't christian (understand "their kind of christianity") until like, the 18thC or so. Europe, the continent that was constantly at war for about 2000 years before the goddamn Rome Treaty in 1957)

Which pertains to...?
Muslims have been killing anyone in their path for 14 centuries... The only exception was ironically colonial period. Then they were massacred.
Not to mention slave trade which exceeded all European endeavors in this shameful field by volume and duration. Poland-Lithuania alone was losing thousands of people each year. So did Russia, Moldavia... Tatars and their Ottoman masters called it "harvesting the Steppe".
Spain, France and Italy had empty Mediterranean costs from XV to XVIII centuries, courtesy of the Berbers...
Omanis shipped eunuchs to India and China. They were so fashionable that even 90% mortality "production" rate didn't hit the profit.

Aztecs, Olmecs etc warred all the time, sacrifices of POWs following close behind...

Peace loving Buddhists massacred one another all over SE Asia and Japan for all written history.
To be fair, people there massacred everyone when they were Animist too...
Cherry on the cake; Myanmar's army recently started program of eradication of Muslims in Arakan. Yeah, you guessed. Instigated by Buddhist monks...

Soviet Union, China, N Korea and all "People's Democracies" killed millions in the name of atheism. National socialism is a special case: one may argue they killed for Occultism, not atheism.
Plus Communist military occupation of Eastern Europe 1945-1989, only thinly veiled by formally sovereign people's democratic governments with Soviet advisers and Russians running the military and internal security.

Let's finish the short example list, it gets TLDR.

Well, I am truly sorry to say this Claudia, but your Christianity bashing falls apart under so little facts...
As for wars in Europe, there was ETA, IRA, Corsican separatists, Islamists (Madrid, anyone?), not to mention whole mess in Yugoslavia, Greek Civil war and a couple of coups that followed, Turkish invasion of Cyprus... All after 1957.

Not to offend you, but Crimea...?
There is Europe out of French national borders too, you know.

As Sima Qian observed, war is a natural state of mankind...
Western Europe's relative peace in XX century was an oddity to the trend. Now we have regression to the mean.

I wouldn't say terrorist attacks be "at war" But yeah point taken bro

Claudia wrote:

Bible's punishments aren't any better

Of course not. Where do you think the Sharia got its ideas?

Quote :

To be fair, most muslims think the Sharia is globally BS as much as most Jewish don't kick your ass for not being cut down there or most Christians giving you shit because you had a divorce.
FYI, Christians massacrated anything that wasn't christian (understand "their kind of christianity") until like, the 18thC or so. Europe, the continent that was constantly at war for about 2000 years before the goddamn Rome Treaty in 1957)

And even then the major european wars probably only stopped due to fear of the bomb...

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Oh god, Merkel <_<

My thought exactly and more or less constantly. But why do oyu say it at this point?

Quote :

Zero, u so cute bro :p Keep pumpin' your muscles while we, with brains, discuss shit :p

Charming as usual, our wizard lady.  

Feral wrote:

Islam!?   *grabs an Uzi*   

At least you know the apropriate weapon for such an Israeli reaction...  

Bertram wrote:

Wherever there's an ounce of power to be had, there'll be people dickin' each other over. You think the Camarilla invented that?

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Claudia uses Liberal bullshit!
It's not very effective...

Feral uses Hussar Logic Spear!
It's super effective!
Claudia fainted!

You make various right statements about christianity. Statements about the past.
If I go to the vatican right now and start screaming in public squares about how the pope is a liar and how christianity is false, the maximum that would happen to me is a fine.

If I go pretty much anywhere in the middle east and say the same thing about prophet muhammed and islam, I'd be dead in less than a minute and you fucking know it to be true.

I have plenty of ammo against Islam but the above is pretty much all a rational people need in order to see the difference in the two systems. People who pat themselves in the back on their own humility and empathy because they see Islam as "just like christianity" are showing a tremendous failure of compassion to Islam's victims; the subjugated (and genitals-multilated) women, the murdered homossexuals, the thousands who die every year because they're accused of apostasy, heresy, and unfaithfullness by their peers. Remember that parodies and jokes about Jesus, Moses and Abraham are printed by the thousands, but a denmark journalist made one parody of muhammad and 100 people worldwide died for it. Don't try to equal it to Judaism or Christianity.

I don't want this sexy forum to become a battleground for differing social/political views, so I will say nothing more on the topic.



And just to correct Feral, communists did not kill "in the name of atheism". Communist states were far closer to a theocratic monarchy than an state "composed by atheists". Just see the Cult of the Leader in these states. North Korea, for example, where people are so fucked up in the head they STILL consider the first Kim dictator to be the head of the state. They shout daily praise about their leader.

Explained in a much better way that I can do (around 3 minutes in):

ThePhilosopher wrote:

You make various right statements about christianity. Statements about the past.
If I go to the vatican right now and start screaming in public squares about how the pope is a liar and how christianity is false, the maximum that would happen to me is a fine.

If I go pretty much anywhere in the middle east and say the same thing about prophet muhammed and islam, I'd be dead in less than a minute and you fucking know it to be true.

But is this because Islam is inherently worse than Christianity or becasue Europe is secular?

Childe of Malkav wrote:

Claudia wrote:

Bible's punishments aren't any better

Of course not. Where do you think the Sharia got its ideas?

Mostly from Torah and Talmud, ironically... Don't tell your Muslim friends.

Childe of Malkav wrote:

And even then the major european wars probably only stopped due to fear of the bomb...

And Americam money pumped into Marshall Plan. Plus, Soviet threat put quite a cap on European bickering.

Childe of Malkav wrote:

Feral wrote:

Islam!?   *grabs an Uzi*    

At least you know the apropriate weapon for such an Israeli reaction...  

Well, I am half Jew... Courtesy of my mother.     

Childe of Malkav wrote:

Bertram wrote:

Wherever there's an ounce of power to be had, there'll be people dickin' each other over. You think the Camarilla invented that?

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My whole post in one sentence, bro.

@Philosopher:

I applaud your post. I agree with it almost totally.
Save for the last paragraph. What you say about N Korea is true, but doesnt apply to USSR after Stalin or PRL (Polish Peoples Republic, in fact not a republic, run by Russians, people had nothing to say). There were priests killed in Poland in 1989still because they openly didn't agree with materialistic dialectics... Popieluszko wasn't the only one. Casus of Cardinal Wyszynski was quite telling, even he was only jailed, not killed. Without valid sentence, as was the norm...

Dragatus wrote:

ThePhilosopher wrote:

You make various right statements about christianity. Statements about the past.
If I go to the vatican right now and start screaming in public squares about how the pope is a liar and how christianity is false, the maximum that would happen to me is a fine.

If I go pretty much anywhere in the middle east and say the same thing about prophet muhammed and islam, I'd be dead in less than a minute and you fucking know it to be true.

But is this because Islam is inherently worse than Christianity or becasue Europe is secular?

Sorry for double post, I didn't notice Draggy's reply.

Let's say I work with Muslims... Have you ever heard the phrase "closed system"?
Islam encompasses all. You cannot reject social order it creates without rejecting Islam. You canott change it, else you author bida (innovation) and need to be stoned...

Need I continue?

Feral you glorious homossexual zoophile, I cannot possibly know more about Poland's history than you, so excuse me if I'm talking bullshit.

But didn't the very examples you named prove that the killings and persecution prove that they were political( hunting everyone who didn't agree with party doctrine and hegemony) instead of religious (hunting everyone that was not atheist)?

Because when you say they killed "in the name of atheism" wouldn't they kill/hunt/persecute anyone who professed any kind of faith, and banish any kind of organized religion? From the way you spoke about those examples, it seems like it was those priests who didn't conform to the new rulers and doctrine that got hunted, not the whole priestdom. So a priest who was okay with the regime, and told people to accept it, would not be persecuted. Were most churches demolished/sacked/ abandoned? Or did the communist rulers still left it to serve as confort to the people, so long as it was not challenging their authority?

Problem is, political doctrine could be religion to some. And then they go kill all infidels...Atheism is a cornerstone of Marxism. If there is a G*d, materialistic dialectism is a load of BS. It is for many other reasons, but this invalidates it en masse, no remains left. To have communist society, you cannot have religion. Think of N Korea. All that happens there is a logical consequence of enforced doctrine. I would not write a TLDR on this, if you want to know why communism cannot work read books of Wiktor Suworow (real name Wladimir Bogdanowicz Rezun).
He was an officer in GRU. Let's say he knows.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Suvorov

As for priests in Poland, well... You think in a very Western way. Comfort of the people was not the Party's concern. If somebody had doubts, there were many basements in MPB/UB/SB (mutations of our dearest political police) buildings. People went in, but not out. It was best to keep your discomfort to yourself, because even your friends could denounce you.

The only reason Church was only persecuted, got most of its property confiscated, and helluva priests arrested was because the Party went step by step, testing how much people could take. Simply put, armed rebellion was possible. Last anticommunist partisan unit was executed in the 1960's, if memory serves.Riots in Poznan were like a bucket of cold water: laborers tried to overthrow Communist Party.Before Stalin's death... After thies our "liberators" got more considerate. Means changed, goals couldn't.

As for priests... Well... I will use a parable.
Could you be a pacifist and applaud when others kill people?
If yes, what sort of a pacifist does it make you?

Feral wrote:

Let's say I work with Muslims... Have you ever heard the phrase "closed system"?
Islam encompasses all. You cannot reject social order it creates without rejecting Islam. You canott change it, else you author bida (innovation) and need to be stoned...

Need I continue?

I remain unconvinced. For example AFAIK Turkey became a lot more secular under Atatürk. They even abolished the caliphate which was a huge change that impacted Muslims all over the world. I'm not familair enough with the subject to say for sure if the caliph was equivalent to the pope in significance, but there is some level of comparison there. So the social order in a muslim country can change significantly.

While we're at it, I can't verify the source, but check out what Afganistan was supposedly like in the 1950s before it got fucked over by the USSR invasion and USA support of extremist Muslims, who were fighting against that invasion: http://blogs.crikey.com.au/culture-mulcher/2010/07/13/in-ancient-afghanistan-c-1950s-photo-essay/

Feral wrote:

Problem is, political doctrine could be religion to some. And then they go kill all infidels...

Isn't that what Philo was saying when he talked about communist states being clsoe to theocratic monarchies?

Quote :

Atheism is a cornerstone of Marxism.

I agree that atheism is a cornerstone of Marxism in the sense that communism without atheism is impossible. I do not agree that this implies that the victims of communist regimes were killed in the name of atheism in the same sense as people are killed in the name of Islam or Christianity.

That is because atheism as a term is not equivalent to a specific religion, such as Christianity, Islam or Buddhism (let alone any of their even more specific subdivisions). It has a wider meaning, and should be compared to theism in general, not to individual branches of theism.

And nobody kills in the name of theism in general. For example Muslims who killed in the name of theism would kill the atheists and agnostic, but they would leave the Christians and Jews alone. That does not happen.

Religious and ideological violence is always comitted in the name of a specific branch of (a)theism. And very likely in the name of an even more specific subdivision.