Countdown to Public Release!

I'm going to begin posting all of my progress on The Final Nights from now until its final release in THIS thread. I will be updating everything I’m working on like one might do on Twitter, that way you can track the progress and make comments on its progression. Feel free to visit on a daily basis to see what new and exciting things are happening in post production, and leave comments or ask questions if you desire. (I plan on this thread getting very large, lol)

3/4/2011 - March marks the 1 year anniversary since TFN's birth. It was exactly 1 year ago that I began working on TFN after a 2 month break from working on CE 1.2. I was still unemployed at that time and ahhh the memories of sleeping in, waking up late and modding all afternoon (what ever happened to those happy times). In fact I haven’t played any other computer or console games in the past year so I could dedicate ALL free time to TFN, NOW THAT’S DEDICATION! (I heard some cool games came out during that time too, like Mass Effect 2 and StarCraft 2).

Anyways, I can’t even list all of the changes we’ve made at this point because I did a horrible job documenting it over the past year, and we’ve changed SO much. What I can tell you is what I’m currently working on right now and what still needs to be done before I can release it. I just finished up with all of the new music in TFN and I’m happy to say that ALL of the original Bloodlines licensed music has been gutted (Sorry but “Swamped” by Lacuna Coil had to go). Last night I made some changes on the “Diner” music and the “Skyline Apt.” music so that the sound is more even regardless of where the character stands. You’ll understand when you’re playing it.

Tonight after I get home from the gym I plan on reskinning Burgermeister’s Asian Assassin model for CQM. We made a deal that he would write the script that would change the loading screen wallpaper to the appropriate TFN clan wallpaper (depending on which clan you are) if I would do some photoshopping for CQM. He made good on his side so I need to fulfill my end. After that is done I plan on finishing up TFN. Here’s a list of what needs to be done before I can release this beast.

1) Reskin all 4 tiers for both genders of the Baali clan (Can you believe this still isn’t done?)
2) Reskin all 4 tiers for the Assamite female character
3) Reskin all 4 tiers for the Salubri male character and do some model editing
4) Reskin all 4 tiers for the Samedi female character and do some MAJOR model editing (This is going to take forever)
5) Not critical but I would like to add a few more instances for using Obeah in dialogue, right now there is only 1

Once this stuff is done, I can finally release this to the public. I still have countless ideas for future versions but at some point you have to say “This is good enough, let’s get this out”.

3/10/2011 – I thought I’d post my current progress and some thoughts I’ve been having lately. I finished the Asian Assassin skin for Burgermeister but he wants some minor changes done so I still need to do those. I’ve begun reskinning/remodeling the male Baali model and it’s coming along very nicely, though I can easily see that my vision is going to take some real dedication and time to realize properly. I don’t want to skimp on him or the female Baali model which leads me to my next question.

Completely remodeling, reskinning, and making the armor icons for the male/female Baali is going to take a good amount of time. Plus, I don’t want to release TFN without adding several more instances where a Salubri can use Obeah in dialogue to earn some extra XP and Humanity boosts. To do all of this is going to take several weeks at least (especially with the testing), and it will take several weeks for Rudest to complete the new clan based loading screens. Taking all of this into consideration, and with the clock ticking, I’m thinking about leaving the female Assamite, male Salubri, and female Samedi out of version 1.0.

I know this has been discussed before and the general consensus was to not release 1.0 without them in it, but I’m tired of being under the gun with TFN and I feel it’s strong enough now to warrant it’s release to the world. If I REALLY wanted to have everything in it that I want then it wouldn’t be ready for another 6-9 months and I’m not about to hold on to this until then, I think you all would agree.

My full intention is to release a version 1.1 w/ bug fixes and most if not all of the missing content or ideas that we wanted in with the first version. This would include adding those last 3 characters, having histories with the clans, adding the Feeding/Humanity system discussed in the ideas section, along with many new ideas that I won’t list here.

This brings me to my last point. TFN is without a doubt the largest mod/expansion to date for Bloodlines, with the exception of the Unofficial Patches which have been worked on for years (but those don’t really apply here). With that in mind, advertising needs to happen to properly release this monster which also will take a few weeks of time. On top of all of that I plan on hosting a final Beta Test run through of the final product which will also take some time, finding bugs and all.

With all of these things needed before a proper release can happen, I feel leaving these 3 playable characters out to concentrate on these other things are a good idea.

Anyone’s thoughts?

If it takes the pressure off, I do think saving all the new goodies for the release of 1.1 would be a good idea.

If anything, it would give the community a chance to run through the mod, find bugs, and give you a chance to take time to release 1.1, with all you wanted to put into it, plus fixes. :D

As I also stated the first time, this was discussed. Better leave some thing out of version 1.0, than never get it out. Else you might end up like the resurgence project (or whatever they call themselves right now), or the antitribu mod. Lots of people, including me, think these two will never get published, and the names are synonyms for "It will never happen".
It's your choice of course, but I'd say get it out before the interest in it gets lost.

-

Thanks both of you, I appreciate the support and I fully agree with both of you. I would think releasing 1.0 with the three PC characters missing (which you can still play the other 11), the histories not done, and the other various "goodies" will prove more than ever why we NEED to release a 1.1. Not to mention, if all I need to do is complete the Baali skins/models, and add several more Obeah dialogues then I'd say we should be ready to start Beta testing the final product in the next few weeks. I don't see why (after testing and advertising) we can't have an April release.

I agree with the previous and would add the following.

It is natural to want *it* to be perfect. Especially if it is something you are emotionally invested, however, large projects rarely are started and completed in one phase. Pace yourself and enjoy the process.

I appreciate all your hard work and excited to see your progress.

Thank you,

Shalun

Well I'm happy to just play the game really! The Salubri are perhaps my favourite clan from this expansion but I'd much rather wait until they are fully implemented before playing them anyway, so I say release it without them and add them later. Also, that way when you release the 1.1 you can advertise the addition of an entire new clan!

Nezumi wrote:

Well I'm happy to just play the game really! The Salubri are perhaps my favourite clan from this expansion but I'd much rather wait until they are fully implemented before playing them anyway, so I say release it without them and add them later. Also, that way when you release the 1.1 you can advertise the addition of an entire new clan!

The Salubri ARE fully implemented, it's just you wouldn't be able to play the male Salubri character until 1.1.

Zer0Morph wrote:

Nezumi wrote:

Well I'm happy to just play the game really! The Salubri are perhaps my favourite clan from this expansion but I'd much rather wait until they are fully implemented before playing them anyway, so I say release it without them and add them later. Also, that way when you release the 1.1 you can advertise the addition of an entire new clan!

The Salubri ARE fully implemented, it's just you wouldn't be able to play the male Salubri character until 1.1.

ahh, sorry, I misread, I though you had written that both salubri were missing, not one salubri and one salmedi. Either way it's all good..>>

Nezumi wrote:

ahh, sorry, I misread, I though you had written that both salubri were missing, not one salubri and one salmedi. Either way it's all good..>>

It's cool. All 7 clans will be playable in TFN 1.0, it's just you won't be able to play one of the genders for three of them. You will have to wait until 1.1 to play the missing gender.

3/13/2011 – This weekend was a big success in terms of modding TFN. I managed to create and playtest a total of 5 instances where a Salubri character can use Obeah in dialogue. Here's what I did...

Mercurio - Can heal him of his wounds completing the "Morphine" quest without getting him morphine. You will also gain an additional 1 XP for it.
Heather - You can heal her of her wounds without giving her your blood gaining an additional 1 XP. By doing this however, you cannot make her your ghoul and you will suffer a Masquerade Violation.
Tin Can Bill - You can remove the plague saving his life gaining an additional XP point for the quest. Doing this will violate the Masquerade however.
Hannah - You can remove the plague saving her life gaining an additional XP point for the quest. Doing this will violate the Masquerade however.
Ash - When Ash is captured by the society of leopold, you can heal him of his burns gaining 1 XP point.

Any of these acts will also give you a Humanity bonus of 1.

The prerequisites to do these acts are that you need to be Salubri, your level of Obeah doesn't matter at this point. I haven't found a way to make it dependent on Obeah level and I'm not sure I want to. Of course if you complete all 5 of these saintly acts your character will be getting an additional 5 XP more than any other character standard. To make it a little more even I'm thinking about blocking off Regent Strauss's quest line to the Salubri.

Ideas on this?

I don't think it's necessary to do something about the 5 xp for this. Three masquerade violations, with your new hunter system plus not having Heather as your ghoul seems punishment enough IMO. Heather is a convenient blooddoll, and gives you at least 500$ unless you have changed that. And the xp for Ash is so late in the game that it doesn't matter any more. Most people have built up the important stats for their character by the time they get to Leopold.

-

"That person has been making people feel better all over the city! Let's kill her!" - Hunters

What's the negative to being a Salubri btw? Feeding, social or both?

8people wrote:

"That person has been making people feel better all over the city! Let's kill her!" - Hunters

...

Of course. They have been healed by satanic means, so their souls have been tainted by that. We must prevent things like that happening again at all costs.

-Grunfeld

Childe of Malkav wrote:

I don't think it's necessary to do something about the 5 xp for this. Three masquerade violations, with your new hunter system plus not having Heather as your ghoul seems punishment enough IMO. Heather is a convenient blooddoll, and gives you at least 500$ unless you have changed that. And the xp for Ash is so late in the game that it doesn't matter any more. Most people have built up the important stats for their character by the time they get to Leopold.

-

That's a good point. As far as the storyline goes, the number question that must be asked is "Would Max Strauss know the character is Salubri?". If he does, there's no way he would be talking to him/her, in fact he would probably be finding ways to destroy them. If Max doesn't realize what clan the Salubri is, and assuming the character doesn't tell him, then I don't see a reason why they couldn't follow the normal "Regent" questlines.

8people wrote:

What's the negative to being a Salubri btw? Feeding, social or both?

Whenever a Salubri feeds on humans (not blood bags), they lose the first point of blood. On top of that, because of the scar on their foreheads (the closed third eye), raising Appearance costs more XP.

Awesome! I was going to say if extra XP is a problem make a social stat more expensive to raise to represent the stigma and scar of being Salubri

Must say they look like they're going to be awesome to play, the whole stigma and challenge of keeping with Salubri tradition. Incredible job, Zer0.

If Strauss is to be present at your sire's execution in the intro, it's hard to imagine him not knowing the clan of the person getting beheaded on stage in front of him. Strauss doesn't strike me as stupid. There's no logical reason for him to be anything but antagonistic toward a Salubri character, much less giving out quests. Unless you want to write some dialogue explaining that, although he is aware of your lineage and the "sordid" history between your two clans, he needs you (and you need him) regardless. As unbelievable as that would be, and despite what the Council of Seven would say.

Then again, there's no reason anyone in this game should be interacting with a Baali, so I'm assuming you'll be lying about your lineage to everyone. If a Baali can deceive Strauss, I don't see why a Salubri couldn't as well. So it's not so much a question of Strauss not being aware, but you (and your sire) lying about your lineage.

8people wrote:

Awesome! I was going to say if extra XP is a problem make a social stat more expensive to raise to represent the stigma and scar of being Salubri

Must say they look like they're going to be awesome to play, the whole stigma and challenge of keeping with Salubri tradition. Incredible job, Zer0.

What a huge compliment, thanks 8people!

Ahriman wrote:

If Strauss is to be present at your sire's execution in the intro, it's hard to imagine him not knowing the clan of the person getting beheaded on stage in front of him. Strauss doesn't strike me as stupid. There's no logical reason for him to be anything but antagonistic toward a Salubri character, much less giving out quests. Unless you want to write some dialogue explaining that, although he is aware of your lineage and the "sordid" history between your two clans, he needs you (and you need him) regardless. As unbelievable as that would be, and despite what the Council of Seven would say.

Then again, there's no reason anyone in this game should be interacting with a Baali, so I'm assuming you'll be lying about your lineage to everyone. If a Baali can deceive Strauss, I don't see why a Salubri couldn't as well. So it's not so much a question of Strauss not being aware, but you (and your sire) lying about your lineage.

It was my understanding that both Baali and Salubri never reveal their natures for fear of retaliation. In beginning of the game, LaCroix states that "It pains me to announce the sentence, because up until tonight I've considered the accused a loyal and upstanding member of this organization.", which leads me to believe he has no idea the player's sire is Baali or Salubri. Assamites, Followers of Set, Ishtarri, Osebo, and even Samedi are known to work for/with the Camarilla, but a Baali or Salubri? No way...

So that makes me believe the character's sire was masquerading as a different clan this whole time (if Baali or Salubri are chosen). If the prince didn't know, I doubt Max would've known. Which makes me wonder if I should write new lines for the Baali character allowing him, if Subterfuge and Persuasion are high enough, to masquerade as a Tremere well enough to aquire quarters within Max's mansion and gain his trust fully. Maybe even allow the Baali character to assassinate Max and take over the chantry entirely... Just throwing ideas out there at this point, lol.

Anyways, that's my reasoning.

Hm, judging by their personality, I'd say if the prince knows, Strauss certainly does, too. But if Strauss found out, he may have good reason not to tell Lacroix. Remember: The clan first, then the camarilla. And I'm sure there is one thing Nines and Strauss have in common, and that's their opinion on Lacroix.
If the sire blended in, I bet the prince would be the last vampire in LA to know they are in fact Baali or Salubri. The first to know would probably be Gary. But unless there is a good price to get for this info...

-

Yes, it really does make the most sense for you, as either a Salubri or Baali, to lie about your heritage. Perhaps an added line or two of dialogue for each clan to explain any interested parties what clan you are supposed to be (Tremere for the Baali, and what for the Salubri?)

I imagine even if he did not tell LaCroix what you were, Strauss would take action, on behalf of his Lord, to eliminate a known Baali/Salubri, with or without the Prince's knowledge or consent. Would he think to use your character as a pawn against LaCroix, with the threat of revealing your clan to him as blackmail? I doubt it.

Superlative mod, by the way, I just had to register to express my gratitude for your hard work, Zer0.

Well my original plan was to...

Baali) Set it up so that if you had a high enough Charism, Subterfuge, and/or Persuasion, you could masquerade as a Tremere and gain Strauss's trust and even stay at the chantry. You would of course gain xtra XP for doing this and get all the benefits of the quests. Then later on maybe you could even plot Strauss's assassination for xtra power and XP, but I hadn't decided on specifics on how I wanted to handle that.

-OR-

Salubri) Strauss would already know you were Salubri at the beginning of the game, and instead of risking your escape, he would secretly plot your death by not saying a word to anyone about it, especially the Prince. At the beginning of the game, instead of receiving the Regent's Invitation, you would receive a Death Threat telling you to leave the city immediately, and of course you don't/can't, so throughout the game as you progress through, you get randomly attacked by Tremere assassins and if you survive, of course you get XP. This would of course be a whole new plot line for the character exclusive to Salubri. Also the door would remain locked to the Chantry so the Salubri can never go in. Eventually, towards the end of the game, surviving all of the attempts to take you out, you get to fight Strauss as an additional boss battle, along with Ming Xiao, the Sherrif, etc....

Those were my original ideas.... yay or nay?

Sound like good ideas, that's probably the best way to proceed.

If you're looking for specifics on how a Baali might proceed, I'd think corrupting another Tremere apprentice with the ultimate purpose of using him to attack Strauss would fit well with the Baali MO. This would obviously necessitate the creation of a new NPC, extra work of course.

...I am all for getting it out sooner than later.

Zer0Morph wrote:

Well my original plan was to...


Those were my original ideas.... yay or nay?

yay!

Great ideas, really consistent with VtM lore. Balli would use manipulation and/or corruption to achive their goals. Manipulating an apprentice into killing Strauss is a good idea, save for one thing: chances of said apprentice. Maybe making Strauss an embarassment to his Lord and Clan would be better? We all know how Tremere handle faliures. And I'm not thinking of degradation. That would have to be a big screw up on Strauss' behalf. Maybe setting that poor apprentice, freshly transferred from another Chantry, as a Balli or Salubri? Especially the former would be kind of poetic.

As for the Salubri, I think your idea is good. But, as Balli/Salubri/Tremere blood is hardly different, our Salubri could pose as a Warlock too. But would he? I don't see a saint resorting to subtrefuge. Maybe the Death Treat line is more consistent with the lore. Unless Max does Thaumaturgically examine the blood of a Salubri, doing a screw up, and assuming he is a Tremere. And of course inviting weyward childe into the fold. Poor him when the Lord finds out Or, wors still, as Salubri are practically non-existent in the WoD, he could take a Salubri for a Balli... It would require some dialogue lines, but think of possible effects!

Survival is still a strong part of humanity. Jacks' favourite part in fact

Problem with turning a tremere apprentice against Strauss is - all Tremere are one step towards a blood bond towards their masters. It's what drove Hannah to seek you out, just one drink.

At Obeah 3 is when the tell tale eye appears on them, and it opens whenever they use Obeah, if it is hidden or covered the discipline fails.

As the game progesses it should probably become obvious that Baali and Salubri are not who they claim, the risk of if they attack Strauss is WHO would take over if you try and side with the camarilla? Will the game let you?

What if at a certain point in the game you get summoned to the Chantry by Strauss and he decides to put you one step towards being bond? Then he could still feel enough power that siding Camarilla is an option if you drink, but if you don't he'll be a boss to face at the end.

For 1.1 of course, for now get this bad boy on the road